CTX 1300 Forum banner

21 - 40 of 62 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,622 Posts
Maybe a service manual is in order for the future if you plan to do much adding on this bike.
I looked in the SM and the rear combination light removal is in a different section than I expected... in the Frame/Body Panel/Exhaust system parts removal section in the front (pg 2-5 -> 2-6). You have to remove the rear center cowl (top part that runs over the light assembly) first. 4 bolts you can see when the seat is removed, then it should slide a bit to the rear and lift off (tabs latch into the light assembly). The rear center cowl base is what that center cowl bolts onto and is what the rear combination light is bolted to. Looks like you should be able to remove the rear combination light without removing the rear center cowl base from the bike. You will need to unplug (just back of the gas tank under the seat) and un-clip the rear combination light cable from the plastic baffle that it is clipped to and also the 2 pin license light plug. Then there are 2 bolts under the seat that are in recesses of the rear plastic beam that goes across, one on each side, and the rear combination light should pull off. From looking at the drawn pictures in the SM (not photos as I would prefer) it looks like that rear combination light is a single unit and you may not even be able to replace the LED elements individually. Remember, this bike has no "bulbs" in the classic sense but all lights are LED and are likely mounted to a circuit board backing them. You may end up having to replace the entire rear combination light. :(
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,622 Posts
Thanks... I feel Welcomed!...As you see from my response to csdexter, I think I've located the problem. After following his good and detailed instructions, I found that both rear turn LEDs are not lighting up after hooking them up individually to the battery. I did tap into the harness under the seat as I have done in the past with my other bikes...never had a problem. But for some reason it didn't go to well with the CTX1300. I'm assuming its because of the bikes LED set up but I'm not sure. I'll contact CD next week and hope they might have an answer. Can the LED's be replaced individually??
Thanks for the good advice. By the way the Flashers up front work OK when I turn on the Emergency Flasher switch.
I've known a lot of riders who tap right into the factory wires to power something with no issues. But I've never had such luck, and is why I no longer do that. Since my Wing (on which I had to repair the factory main lights wire harness for this same kind of thing) I fashion a plug-n-play harness to insert between factory connectors and then only tap off "signal" wires to run relays that power my add-ons. no risk that way. This bike is very different than other bikes that came before with the all-LED system and the electronics are likely very sensitive to what is tapped in. You may be onto something thinking the new module may have mess things up with the turn LEDs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Bob, those were excellent instructions thanks very much for the clarity. I think you're right the rear combination light is in fact a single unit. Replacing that part cost about $350 plus any labor if I decide to take the bike into the shop and have them do it there. That sure was a costly mistake on my part. It only proves how right you are about not tapping into existing wires. Unfortunately, it would take me several weeks to put together the type of harness that your recommending. I know that there are other types of harnesses out there. Any ideas of what might be a good replica to yours ? I'll keep the forum posted about how this all turns out in the end including Custom Dynamics triple play unit after speaking with their tech support people. I would hate to see others have the same problem.:(:mad:at myself
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
For technical completeness, here is where the flasher "relay" (misnomer as it's solid state on the CTX1300) is located [hi-res]:

(this is the right side of the bike, exactly behind the right side cowling, the one with the Honda logo. The flasher relay is the square box behind the two translucent wires going North-South.)

The rear combination light is unfortunately a single unit, in what Honda is concerned. The headlight unit at the front appears to have screws and other removable fasteners -- assuming the rear light follows the same idea (and isn't just glued shut all around), you should be able to take it to an electronics workshop to have it diagnosed. Depending on what's toasted, you may be able to get away for far less than the 350USD you'd pay for a brand new complete part.


For the future, on any light fixture involving LEDs (including vehicle or stationary ones), unless you know its internal design, don't assume anything and don't attempt to splice into any wire. LEDs work a lot different to filament bulbs and it's very easy to damage either them or their dedicated power supply if the wrong connections are made.

In general (and if you don't believe me, ask anybody who's been pulling a trailer for years), it's a bad idea to attach any extra load to any OEM wires (regardless whether the bike has bulbs or LEDs). Use a separate power wire and a relay (or relays, if more circuits are involved) to trigger your extra loads and you should be out of trouble for a long time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
For technical completeness, here is where the flasher "relay" (misnomer as it's solid state on the CTX1300) is located [hi-res]:

(this is the right side of the bike, exactly behind the right side cowling, the one with the Honda logo. The flasher relay is the square box behind the two translucent wires going North-South.)

The rear combination light is unfortunately a single unit, in what Honda is concerned. The headlight unit at the front appears to have screws and other removable fasteners -- assuming the rear light follows the same idea (and isn't just glued shut all around), you should be able to take it to an electronics workshop to have it diagnosed. Depending on what's toasted, you may be able to get away for far less than the 350USD you'd pay for a brand new complete part.


For the future, on any light fixture involving LEDs (including vehicle or stationary ones), unless you know its internal design, don't assume anything and don't attempt to splice into any wire. LEDs work a lot different to filament bulbs and it's very easy to damage either them or their dedicated power supply if the wrong connections are made.

In general (and if you don't believe me, ask anybody who's been pulling a trailer for years), it's a bad idea to attach any extra load to any OEM wires (regardless whether the bike has bulbs or LEDs). Use a separate power wire and a relay (or relays, if more circuits are involved) to trigger your extra loads and you should be out of trouble for a long time.
Thanks for the comeback and the pic! Extremely helpful. Good and wise advise. I tested as you suggested and found that the rear turning bulbs did not light up. But they aren't regular LEDs either. The rear unit is a single module with LEDs affixed to a circuit board as Bob suggested so the board may not be functioning the same as a standard LED. There's continuity from the front to the connector under the seat. I rigged up 2 LEDs to the right and left turn leads both worked however they both blink fast as does the front signals. The emergency flasher is working fine. It might be the relay?? Also not your standard LED relay. Your thoughts
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
I traded technical accuracy for easier to understand language :) If you want to go technical, then here goes:
- the CTX1300 has all-LED lightning. Each "light" (for the purposes of vehicle legislation) is designed as an integrated LED emitter and driver assembly, exposing a standard DC 12V input like a conventional filament bulb light.
- some of the assemblies contain a single LED chip (e.g. the headlights), while others contain multiple units (e.g. position/marker light, stop light etc.).
- some assemblies have their own driver which exposes the DC 12V interface to the wiring harness, others are wired into an external driver which controls multiple assemblies (e.g. the headlights)
- in all of the above, "DC 12V" is meant in an automotive context; that is, a design target of 13.8V and an absolute maximum of 14V.
- in the above context, the front indicators are given as "12V/5W" in the official documentation which (considering the point above) gives a current of 350mA which is quite standard for a LED assembly of the optical power the front indicators have on the CTX1300.
- IMPORTANT things to note so far: (a) LEDs take a lot less current than their bulb counterparts, therefore the wiring harness is much thinner for LEDs than for bulbs, (b) LEDs do care (a lot!) about which end is positive and which negative, while bulbs did not, (c) bulbs will tend to average out the voltage given and that's why you don't see your bulbs at home flickering (despite being fed alternating current); LED+driver assemblies, having a much faster off-to-on ramp, will tend to visibly flicker if anything is wrong with the power supply and (d) a bulb rated for 12V will work for a few good hours (and very bright) at 15V before giving up the ghost, while a LED assembly (unless it has designed-in over-voltage protection) will commit suicide before you'll even see the LEDs coming up
- on to the "relay", the CTX1300 comes in two flavours in some markets: Standard and Deluxe. The Standard doesn't have self-cancelling turn signals and so uses a simpler "relay" which doesn't have the pulse-counting logic the one on the Deluxe has. For the same reason, the Standard relay doesn't have the "start blinking" input the Deluxe has (since on the Standard there is no need to know how long ago did the rider touch the button).
- due to the lighting design of the CTX1300 (front indicators always-on in dimmed mode, like per the US regulations, but in all markets) and due to the fact that the front indicator LED assembly was designed with only two wires (i.e. no two-filament functionality like with a classic bulb), it was necessary to have completely separate circuits (so 4 of them in total) for all indicators (2 front, 2 back).
- due to the fact that the dashboard lights are also LED-based, separate circuits were needed for those two as well. In total, no less that 6 wires (whereas a classic bulb-based setup would only have two).
- in all the above, "relay" is written in quotes because there is no actual electro-mechanical relay involved. The device is solid state, most probably uses MOS-FETs to do the switching of the loads and has a microcontroller to count the pulses from the front and rear wheel sensors and keep time, to estimate when the signals can be cancelled after taking a turn.
- another difference is that CTX1300's "relay" departs from the age-old design of wiring it in series with the load and the flashing starts when the turn signal switch closes the circuit. On the CTX1300, the switch on the right handlebar simply generates a control signal (like a logic "1" in TTL) which triggers the "relay" to start flashing the turn signals. Flashing stops when that signal goes back to logic "0" (on both versions) or (on the Deluxe only) when the timing, distance travelled and wheel speed difference conditions match the factory-programmed ones for auto-cancel. Note that on the Standard said logic input is level-sensitive while on the Deluxe it's rising edge-sensitive.
- hazard flashing is accomplished on both versions by supplying a logic "1" to both inputs (i.e. flash right and flash left simultaneously), said input is level sensitive (on both versions) and overrides any auto-cancel logic on the Deluxe
- IMPORTANT things to note so far: (a) the "relay" is sized for LED loads, connecting bulbs to it will make it go up in smoke, (b) all the tricks bulb-based bikes used (e.g. connecting the dash indicator across the left and right wires) do not apply to the CTX1300, attempting to enact any of them will likely result in damage to property, (c) the front indicator circuit is particularly sensitive since the "relay" keeps those lights at half-on all the time, which means it modulates current going into them, which means anything spliced into that circuit will likely damage the relay more readily than other circuits.

I hope this is more technically accurate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chairider

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
WOW!...what a way to tell me I did bad. But who knew. Surely learned my lesson. If its just the "relay" that fried I'd be happy and hoping that's all it is. Thanks for the great tech lesson. I hope other CTX1300 owners read your description before attempting to tap into these wires or any wires for that matter. I think Bobs solution of adding separate harnesses is the logical and practical solution. Next time lets talk laytalk :)...Thanks Again for all the good help and education!!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,622 Posts
BTW. that "relay" is on the other right (i.e.: the left side of the bike same as the battery) :)

On my thread for my electrical farkle upgrade I've added the electrical (block style) diagrams of what I've actually implemented.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
bob is right, I got the sides wrong :( Yes, the picture shows the left side of the bike, where the battery and clutch lever are. My bad, sorry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
I ordered a new "relay" for the Deluxe model (There's a difference between the standard and deluxe models). Best price I found was at partsfish.com...$120.00 including shipping. (WOW for a "relay-not-a-standard-relay-relay") Should be here in about a week. I'll install it and report back. Hope it will do the trick!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
I ordered a new "relay" for the Deluxe model (There's a difference between the standard and deluxe models). Best price I found was at partsfish.com...$120.00 including shipping. (WOW for a "relay-not-a-standard-relay-relay") Should be here in about a week. I'll install it and report back. Hope it will do the trick!
I must admit being confused, I thought you said you checked the rear light and it does not light up when powered directly, so what use is a new relay going to be?

As for the price, it's really cheap in context. Automotive parts are expensive because it's fashionable to do so. Motorcycle parts are even more expensive and electronic parts in both markets are even more expensive on top of that. As if they were all made in gold or something.

120USD including shipping for a self-cancelling flasher relay with hazards functionality and wheel speed sensor inputs is dirt cheap in this market.

Of course, the total cost of all electronic components is more like 12USD and I wouldn't pay more than 100USD for R&D (one-time cost, and they made thousands of this relay). Why not more than 100USD? Because it's a trivial design that any second-year EE student would complete in their lunch break.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Yes, you thought correctly I did check the rear lights and they do not light up when powered directly from the battery. So you're not confused. Here's my reasoning for installing a new relay module. In that this is a very sophisticated lighting system as I'm being led to believe, and am now convinced, I thought and maybe not correctly that the LED brake light turn signal circuit board in the rear might have special circuitry that only recognizes specific signaling coming from that special solid-state relay next to the battery in the front of the bike. It may be completely illogical and downright stupid reasoning, but it's worth a try. If after installing the new relay and the lights don't come on then I assume that I've blown something in the turn signal/brake light/running light unit. I also had the opportunity of speaking at length with the tech support individual at Custom Dynamics. The fellow is definitely puzzled why the system (their triple play module) did not work properly on the CTX 1300 and caused the problem. They're looking into it. I assume they'll be speaking with tech people at Honda. In any event it's an expensive lesson to learn. I'll keep you all updated. I wonder if I would have had the same problem had I installed one of their electronic signal stabilizers up stream of the triple play unit. Here is a link to the devices I've just mentioned. (I use the universal module)

Motorcycle Run Brake Turn Conversion Kit

Motorcycle Load Equalizer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
/me facepalms

Custom Dynamics is a US company serving the US market (and rather full of themselves, in my personal experience -- but I digress). What's the US market? Harleys!!! Why would you think an adapter made by a company which only targets Harleys would work on anything else?

This quite explains why the support people were "puzzled" (apart from being obviously incompetent, that is) to hear it doesn't work on your bike.

As for the "Load Equalizers"/"Signal Stabilizers" (why do people pick stupidly extravagant marketing names for something so simple as a dummy load? Maybe because their target market is inexperienced riders who would buy anything they recommend?), most obviously, none are needed on the CTX1300 as the bike is already equipped with LEDs from the factory so there is absolutely no need to "lie" to the relay so that it doesn't blink too fast.


Out of curiosity, since that device is meant to be inserted inline in the rear light harness on a Harley, it comes with Harley connectors. How did you connect it on the CTX1300? (a picture would be great).

Also out of curiosity, assuming you have a voltmeter around and with the harness in the OEM condition (i.e. connected to the combination tail light with nothing spliced in), do you read any voltage between each of the rear lamp wires (Orange and Light Blue) and ground (Green) when you turn the signals on?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chairider

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,622 Posts
I agree about Custom Dynamics. However I did buy my Night Riderz LED bar from them. The one thing I did to ensure no influence on the factory bike circuits was to ISOLATE that LED bar from the factory circuits by using my own fuse block to feed power to a relay under the seat that is triggered on/off by the brake wire signal. Important to note here, by isolating the power for the LED bar I remove the risk of damage to the factory electrical parts. By using a pigtail that inserts between the connectors with straight through wiring pin for pin to extract only the signals I need I also remove possible damage to factory wires caused by cutting into them with crimps or any other means. Even Posi-taps poke a hole in the insulation of a wire and a sharp pin nicks the wire inside causing some damage (although less than those cursed blue wire crimps which actually cut the insulation and wires). Also, I've found that using isolated power directly from the battery I can add almost anything that the battery can handle without worry of damage to any factory circuit... cuz it's isolated.
I am thinking this brake/turn conversion kit would likely have worked fine with an isolated power circuit without risk to the factory systems. I even helped a neighbour wire in his trailer harness this way on his Harley Road King after he bought the isolation module I recommended to him.

On a related note: I was wondering why you would be using this brake/turn conversion kit on this bike. I know what the kit does. But the turn signals on the CTX1300 are amber and all brake indicators should be red. Some states have specific laws governing that brake lights be red only. (one of the minor reasons I chose to add a LED tail/brake light bar that is all red). This conversion kit essentially changes the function of your rear lights to work the same as American car rear lights work... turn and brake signals are the same with a special center brake light centered. All non-American vehicles that I've seen have separate brake and turn signal lights. I've never agreed with having the brake and turn lights shared by the same lamps and have always preferred them separate. My own opinion here. I guess that is why Harleys are predominant brand to keep trailer harness adapter products that change a naturally 5 wire system to a 4 wire plug selling, even though their own bikes are naturally a 5 wire system for the tail lamps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
"Out of curiosity, since that device is meant to be inserted inline in the rear light harness on a Harley, it comes with Harley connectors. How did you connect it on the CTX1300? (a picture would be great)."

They offer a Universal unit with "posi" connectors. see pic below.
I returned the harness to factory so I don't have pics...Sorry
I'll check out the voltage as you recomended and report back
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
Okay, so I'm guessing you disconnected the connector under the saddle and then tapped into the wires (so that the connection between the harness and the rear light now goes only through the red box)?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chairider

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,622 Posts
My guess is that the power on the CTX wiring to the rear combination light is not right for what the box expects nor is designed for. So it doesn't surprise me if the CD box blew out the LED circuit in the rear combination light. These devices, and many others, are still assuming incandescent lighting and power configurations and won't work right on LED power configurations. Custom Dynamics needs to get educated on bike systems that are not "old school" (as they are becoming these days with more and more bikes starting to show up as LED only).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Okay, so I'm guessing you disconnected the connector under the saddle and then tapped into the wires (so that the connection between the harness and the rear light now goes only through the red box)?
Yes that's correct. When things didn't work as specified by CD I reconnected the wiring to original factory. When doing so I found that the turn signals did not flash at all. That "red box" is no longer wired into the bikes rear light harness.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
My guess is that the power on the CTX wiring to the rear combination light is not right for what the box expects nor is designed for. So it doesn't surprise me if the CD box blew out the LED circuit in the rear combination light. These devices, and many others, are still assuming incandescent lighting and power configurations and won't work right on LED power configurations. Custom Dynamics needs to get educated on bike systems that are not "old school" (as they are becoming these days with more and more bikes starting to show up as LED only).
I'm pretty sure that's what happened. I don't think that the CD box is damaged but I do think that something definitely blew weather in the rear light set up itself or in the relay upfront. One way or the other I'll get it fixed. The price of being educated hard way. I also agree that companies like Custom Dynamics need to get with it. They'll get lots of complaints and will lose lots of business. I'll keep the form posted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
All's well that ends well. I took the bike into my local Honda dealer's service department. Explained exactly what I did. The service manager did a once over and told me that the bike would need to be in the shop for diagnostics. The following day the service manager called and told me that the rear light modules' circuit board specifically, the turn signal boards, both of them, were history and that the entire unit would need to be replaced. He was also somewhat surprised that Honda decided to build a single break, tail and turn signal unit into the bike rather than fitting individual LED bulbs. He looked up the cost and was surprised to say the least learning that the repair would cost nearly $500. So the moral of the story boys and girls is to listen to your elders, Bob and csdexter, they've been around the block and know this stuff inside out. Never, never tap into the bikes wiring directly. That was my mistake. And I'm lucky I didn't do more damage. Bob has many good ideas diagrams and explanations of how to wire in different components. I urge everyone to follow his directions if you're going to put electrical add-ons onto your CTX 1300. Just want to say thanks to Bob and csdexter for all their good advice. Now, let's move on to happier subjects... Let's ride!:smiley-happy0034::smileygarden_de_ban
 
21 - 40 of 62 Posts
Top