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Shifting issues revisited...

33K views 102 replies 50 participants last post by  greester 
#1 ·
I haven't heard much chatter about this in awhile and thought I'd toss my $.02 in again.

I have had a recurring issue with 1-2 shift and ending up in Neutral. I have given up trying to figure that out.

A few things I have noticed as I reach 1000 miles on this bike.

1. After the 1st oil change I noticed shifting actually got WORSE.
I did use real motorcycle oil (synthetic of course) and the correct grade.

Shifting feels notch and un-smooth as it was prior to the 1st oil change.
I also notice now, I am missing the higher shift (10% of the time) as some of you have been mentioning.

Anytime I changed my oil in my last bike (Suzuki V-Strom DL1000) shifting always improved and felt nice and smooth.

...I am at a loss here. It's been in the upper 80s here and the engine is always hot, but shifting stinks even first starting out. I am debating trying a thicker oil since the service manual claims a different viscosity can be used based on climate. It doesn't forbid one SAE weight vs another. Just recommends 10w-30 as a normal oil.

Wondering if anyone has any input in this. I can't stand a notchy gearbox.

:350x700px-LL-66dd6d
 
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#3 ·
Next oil change try dino oil and not synthetic. From what I've been reading here it seems many have put in synthetic of various viscosities/grades and now have shifting problems. My experience after the first oil change is that shifting remained the same. I rarely miss the 1-2 shift (maybe 4-5 times at the most in the last 1800 miles) and have never missed the other shifts higher up. I used Chevron Havoline 10w-30 dino oil (red bottle, NOT resource or energy conserving). At the time this was the only oil at Walmart I could find that matched exactly the specs Honda recommended other than the JASO. It was, however, SN so that is equivalent.
 
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#4 ·
This is what I used, except mine is 10w-30. 5qt bottle. Labelled as for High Mileage vehicles. Only stuff I could find on the shelf (at the time) that did not state resource or energy conserving. I am thinking more and more that last part is most important in this engine. Also this oil cost less than most other oils that I have used in the past. This bottle is just the right amount for the oil/filter change. I ended up with about a quarter of a quart left!

 
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#17 ·
Maybe

This is what I used, except mine is 10w-30. 5qt bottle. Labelled as for High Mileage vehicles. Only stuff I could find on the shelf (at the time) that did not state resource or energy conserving. I am thinking more and more that last part is most important in this engine. Also this oil cost less than most other oils that I have used in the past. This bottle is just the right amount for the oil/filter change. I ended up with about a quarter of a quart left!

I'm wondering if the issue Really boils down to the use of High Mileage oil. Those typicaly have addatives to account for (and help seal) wear on older friction surfaces and in some case seals. Totally not necessary nor a good idea with new engine and drivetrain components (like the clutch) . Plus I have discussed this topic (Synth vs dino) a few times with a former coworker (a Mechanical engineer) who was also invloved in auto racing industry and served as a consultant for them. He had been involved with a lot of oil ( dino vs synth) testing including destructive testing. He said you DO want to get to using synthetic for a number of reasons. He he also warned that it is not a good idea (though can be done) to convert to synthetic (prematurely) on new equipement until at least two changes with Dino oil and at least 5000 miles. If the equipment was not originally delivered with Synthetic by OEM, then it needs to have wear surfaces broken in with dino for some time else they will not reach optimum performance (and long term lifespan) or it can take many many more miles to get there.

I changed mine at ~ 600+ with Honda GN4 and Honda filter. My dealer gives me 20% on Honda accessories and service products which helps. This also could assist in any warranty issues since I have records of buying exact OEM fluid and filter from OEM dealer. But even if I didn't get a discount, why risk degradation of a multi thousand dollar purchase/investment just to save just 10 or a bit more bucks. Putting it in perspective, that is like saving $'s on 1/2 case of beer or similar to risk degradation? Saving $10+ on a $15,000 - $17,500+ (before accessories) investments potential future perfomance and possible lifespan??? I'd get the High mileage stuff OUT ASAP, do a change (including filter), and repeat in 100 or so miles to get any residual out. Then see it the problem pursists before I spoke to the dealer... in case the actions performed with wrong fluid might void the warranty.

Lastly, I too have noted a few (and only a few) mis-shifts. What I also noted was it tended to occur with only one of the 4 various boots I ride with. It occurred with one of the two safety boots I have from former work. My other two boots are M/C riding boots. Being more delibraet with teh offending boots seems to have solved it.
Just My 2 Cents.
 
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#5 ·
A few things I have noticed as I reach 1000 miles on this bike.

1. After the 1st oil change I noticed shifting actually got WORSE.
Although my issue is still mostly between 4-5, I also noticed that it got worse after the first oil change. In fact it only started happening after the first oil change -- It never happened before that. It's very strange that sometimes, no matter how hard I kick it up, it just does not want to go all the way into gear. Downshifting, I barely need to touch it and it slides right in; upshifting sometimes is just a chore. It does take some of the joy out of riding when I have to consciously think about how I'm shifting -- haven't had that on any of my last 3 or 4 bikes. I'm definitely going to bring it up when it goes in for the 4000 mile service, and I'll ask that they don't put in synthetic oil as well. And I'll see if they can adjust the shifter pedal down about 1/2" or so, too -- I still think that could have something to do with it. I had a similar issue years ago on another bike after I changed the seat, and adjusting the pedal eliminated it.
 
#6 ·
Although my issue is still mostly between 4-5, I also noticed that it got worse after the first oil change. In fact it only started happening after the first oil change -- It never happened before that. It's very strange that sometimes, no matter how hard I kick it up, it just does not want to go all the way into gear. Downshifting, I barely need to touch it and it slides right in; upshifting sometimes is just a chore. It does take some of the joy out of riding when I have to consciously think about how I'm shifting -- haven't had that on any of my last 3 or 4 bikes. I'm definitely going to bring it up when it goes in for the 4000 mile service, and I'll ask that they don't put in synthetic oil as well. And I'll see if they can adjust the shifter pedal down about 1/2" or so, too -- I still think that could have something to do with it. I had a similar issue years ago on another bike after I changed the seat, and adjusting the pedal eliminated it.
These comments nailed it but.... :confused:

...I guess I will wait and see what your dealer says.
 
#7 ·
I'm running Honda HP4 oil and I still see the 1N2 problem a few times per week.

I have noticed a hard stop in N sometimes. The lever is at the top and will not move any further, yet the bike is in N instead of 2. The only way to get to 2 is to release the pressure on the lever and do it again. This happens on both bikes.

It occurred a few times on the red bike before I did the initial oil change. And it's happened one time after the oil change.

I've not had any issues in the higher gears. My second ST1100 used to hop out of fifth a few times per year. My 2012 Gold Wing did it a couple of times. I ran HP4 in those bikes also.

My blue bike seemed to run less smooth after the first oil change. One thing I've noticed on both bikes is that the engines felt smoother with the shorty windshields. I don't know if that's real or just that my senses are a bit overwhelmed when I use the shorty.
 
#8 ·
I'm running Honda HP4 oil and I still see the 1N2 problem a few times per week...
Do you use the Gold bottle? That is a synthetic blend. I still am wondering if any amount of synthetic is bad for this transmission. Any synthetic is a bit more slippery than regular dino oil. Even Honda's own documentation on their oils states that their synthetic has "lower fluid friction" than dino oils.
The HP4S is full synthetic and is much slipperier than dino oils. Good for racing and high stress per Honda's own recommendation. Implied is not quite so good for street/touring.
HP4M is a synthetic blend and has Moly, a friction modifier that is bad for the clutch. DON'T USE THIS OIL IN THE CTX. Only good use for this oil is in very high stress operation... lots of redline and lugging.
GN4 is full dino oil and may be the preferred choice for our CTX bikes if the vast majority of riding is commuting, street, low stress.

Was reading in this document from Honda. I know it was written in 2009 but should not be much different than now.

I really wonder what oil the dealers use. I am betting they stick with ONE oil for all their oil changes in all the bikes they service. Probably the HP4 gold bottle. For sure which ever one costs them less.

I've used full synthetic in all my bikes in the last 15 years but from what I am reading here I think for this bike I'll stick to the Chevron Havoline High Mileage 10w-30 or 5w-30 (for winter time) in the red bottle as I showed above.
I've also had the 1-2 shift to N in all my bikes. But that has happened only once or twice a month of constant every day riding, same as with my CTX.
 
#10 ·
The oil spec issue was bothering me to the point I just had to look it up in the service manual. The OWNERS manual really doesn't say what Honda oil to use other than the JASO T 903 spec, grade MA. The SERVICE manual states on page 3-10 the same for the JASO spec/grade and also specifically recommends Honda GN4 oil. It does say "or equivalent" but I'm still not convinced synthetic is indicated here with the shifting getting worse after the first oil change for some of you. Honda HP4 is not mentioned. Again, I'd find out what oil the dealer is putting in these bikes. This one may be much more picky about it.
 
#11 ·
I understand your point and perspective and appreciate it.
However, I can't believe synthetic would be doing this.

The belief that synthetic is more "slippery" is a misunderstood statement:

1. Synthetic motor oil is too slippery. It causes roller bearings to slide instead of roll, and that causes the bearings to fail.

Fact or Fiction? – Fiction

This myth is very popular among the motorcycle crowd, and the roots of this myth are based in the misapplication of passenger car motor oil. The power density of motorcycle engines place greater shear forces on the motor oil than passenger car engines do. As a result, most passenger car motor oils are not appropriate for use in a motorcycle engine. This is especially true of passenger car motor oils optimized for passenger-car fuel economy. These oils are the least shear stable, and should not be used in motorcycle engines.

Failures in motorcycle engines have long been blamed on synthetic oil. However, the problem was is not the synthetic base oil, it’s the fact the synthetic oil is not formulated for a motorcycle engine. A properly-formulated synthetic motorcycle oil will provide superior performance in a motorcycle engine. Likewise, a properly-formulated synthetic passenger car motor oil will provide superior performance in a passenger car engine as well.


...Now, with that in mind guys, I still can't explain the problem and willing to admit that I'm not sure synthetic isn't part of the problem...but I'm not sure what is, since it seems I didn't have this bad of an issue prior to the oil change.

Sure seems like oil could be a reasonable culprit.
I suppose I could dump some regular MC dino oil in there and trial it.
I have nothing to loose but a few dollars and some time

:350x700px-LL-66dd6d
 
#12 ·
I agree that to say synthetic is too slippery is incorrect. I was referring to what Honda said of their oils, HP4S and HP4M specifically. And I did also say that all synth is a bit more slippery than straight dino, but that is mainly due to synth being able to last longer than dino and retain it's lubricating properties longer, not that it is too slippery (poor choice of words on my part). I wouldn't be surprised to find that the higher stress motorcycle motors put on oil is not unlike the stresses put on oil by big diesel engines in some ways, but then different too in most ways. That is why something like Rotella-T full synth has worked well with many motorcycles. I generally like full synthetic but if it's going to affect shifting on my motorcycle I'll stick with what I have.
I'm just wondering if the dealers are using HP4S or even HP4 where they might need to be using GN4 instead? Don't know enough about it. I would also agree it is worth a little trial to see if using GN4 or the Havoline high mileage that I mentioned or something similar would make a difference. Like you said, it's not that costly to do to find out.
 
#14 ·
I think you may way to stay away from the synthetic. I was talking to my dealer about the bike before I'd picked it up and he recommended against using synthetic in this bike. He said if I did want to use synthetic to only use a blend due to the oil also lubricating the transmission / clutch......

I have since picked up my bike and while I've missed a couple of shifts I'd attribute it more to my getting used to the bike that to the bike itself....
 
#15 ·
FWIW: The last two bikes I owned,a 99 Yamaha RSV, which BTW, I sold with 200,000 miles on it and was STILL running like new,and a 2010 Triumph Thunderbird which I'm currently still drivin ,which only has 74,000 miles on it right now,were both changed to Dino oil by me,where synthetic was recommended.The motors in both bikes were very noisy and the shifting,difficult.Sound familiar?? Now I'm NOT tellin anyone what to do,but after getting some advice from another gentleman who tried this,and was successful,I too switched from synthetic,and started using 15/40 Shell Rotella T,with 8 oz. of STP added into the mix.And after following his advice, the motors were nice and quiet,and the transmissions shifted smooth as silk.
I change the oil and filter at the 3000 mile mark. And you can always go back to synthetic oil [which I'll NEVER use again in ANYTHING I own] if you're not happy with it.So now ya have an alternative to try,"IF" you want!! Dave!!!
 
#19 · (Edited)
The 15/40 Shell Rotella T that I'm using is NOT synthetic oil.It's Dino or regular oil.As I stated,my motors,[more so with my TBird], were [past tense] bangin away really good,ESPECIALLY on a hot day and or when in stop and go traffic.So I had to do somethin before I started pickin engine parts up off the street.And usually when ya hear metallic noises comin from a MOTOR,you can bet your bippy that some kind of internal damage is taking place.

But again,I'm NOT tellin anyone what to run or do with their machines,only what I have learned thru experience and done with mine.So it's YOUR choice as to what you use in your machine.Now you can continue using the synthetic until you're out of warantee, as long as your motor is NOT bangin away,or change to somethin else,again,your choice.Remember,my idea is only a suggestion if motor noises are detected,which the stealer will usually tell ya " THEY ALL DO THAT",that is, until it's out of warantee and then they stick it to ya.

And I did get into a pretty good pissin contest with the engineers, who also own a Tbird and frequent the same Triumph site I do, about this synthetic verses dino oil topic.So all I did was ask em,who's got the most mileage,"ACROSS THE BOARD" on his Tbird and "WITHOUT" any motor,trans,or clutch problems? And the answer was: That lil ole trouble maker,ME!! lol lol End of story!! lol lol Carry on gentlemen! Dave!!!
 
#81 ·
The 15/40 Shell Rotella T that I'm using is NOT synthetic oil.It's Dino or regular oil.As I stated,my motors,[more so with my TBird], were [past tense] bangin away really good,ESPECIALLY on a hot day and or when in stop and go traffic.So I had to do somethin before I started pickin engine parts up off the street.And usually when ya hear metallic noises comin from a MOTOR,you can bet your bippy that some kind of internal damage is taking place.
then they stick it to ya.

Guess you never owned a Victory V92. that tranny sounds HORRIFIC in neutral , you would swear there was something wrong . Like you said, I was told don't worry drive it, at 40K now and still no issues. Those trannys are bulletproof.:) I use a synthetic blend but then again that is what is recommended.
 
#20 ·
I usually like "dino". With wet clutches things can be annoying. If the clutch isn't fully disengaging that could make it hard for the gears to mesh, which results in being unable to shift.

But I think it's definitely time to bring it in and get this on record as a warranty service issue. There's no such thing as a company that has a 0% failure rate.
 
#22 ·
I'm not an expert either. Just very detail oriented. Trying to remember what I saw when I bought my oil at Walmart and the Rotella T6 on the shelf did have the resource conserving label but I'll have to check again next time I am able. I was sure it said that but could be mistaken. There were very few oil containers that didn't say either resource or energy conserving. The high mileage oil I did get was one of only 3 I found that didn't have that forbidden wording and all 3 were high mileage!

I was considering early on to go to synthetic for the 8000 mile change. May still be worth a try just to test it, even though I've said I wouldn't use synthetic... until I learn better. If the Rotella T6 still states in the performance requirements listing that it meets JASO MA (wet clutch approved) then I may yet go with that as long as it is not resource conserving. I know that it doesn't have, and never has, the official JASO MA certification labeling but not all oils that meet the requirements do. At one time Shell stated they warranty cover their oil for JASO MA where they have the statement on the label.
 
#23 ·
Something I forgot to mention was that since I've been drivin two wheeler,[52 consecutive years]I've covered over 1,00,000 miles and have only used Dino oils,not synthetic.But my point is,as long as ya let the motor warm up before drivin off,don't beat the sh** outta it,and change the oil and filter around the 3000 mile mark,ya really shouldn't have any oil related problems no matter which oil ya use.I never really had any oil related problems until I bought my Tbird which came thru with synthetic oil.But after dumping that synthetic oil and switching to Dino,any strange motor noises I had are all behind me now.Dave!!!
 
#24 ·
I will be changing to Delvac 1300 15w-50 today. I know its not JASO rated but it's rather close to Rotella and I have gallons of this stuff....and it is SM rated.

Been using Delvac in the Kenworth and she has 1,162,145 miles on it as of Friday, so this oil must be doing something good. She was raised on it and I've kept using it.
Engine still hasn't been overhauled and still factory sealed. I use less than 1 gal of oil between fill ups.


So I will give this a try. I may actually fill it up, run a day or two, dump and refill, just to be sure all the synthetic is out......
 
#25 ·
Anyone Know if this is a Common shifting problem with the ST1300 bike.
 
#26 ·
Most of this engine and transmission are right out of the ST1300. Yes, this has been reported over on the ST-Owners.com forum. You should drop in over there and read the forums on the ST1300 technical sections (there are a number of sub-forums dedicated to that bike).
I wouldn't say it's common really. On the CTX or the ST. But it does happen for some. The first to second gear issue is rather common on most bikes that I know of and have heard about. But other higher gears dropping out is really not so common.
 
#27 ·
My 83' GL1100, & 84' GL1200, & 86' GL1200, Goldwings.

All get very cranky when any synthetic oil is used in them, the trans becomes very upset and does not like to behave.

But when I put in some Chevron DELO 400 LE 15W-40 oil in, the problem goes away and all of them shift great after that.

I dont know if that oil would be good in the CTX13 or not.
 
#63 · (Edited)
Noticeable Noise Reduction!



Even though it's two years later I want to say I'm very grateful for this suggestion.

I had 1900 miles on my CTX 1300 when it started making a distinctive whistling noise (in addition to the endearing Allison T-56 jet engine noises), that sounded like a boiling teapot. It seemed like it was coming from the left side of the engine, between 45 to 65 MPH (regardless of gear), and could only be heard with the visor up at certain helmet angles/attitudes (e.g. I could look to the right and the sound would disappear, look forward and it would reappear). Once noticed it was hard to ignore (and was driving me crazy -- I had grown quite used to the normal sounds from this engine). I checked everything. Engine oil was a little low, so I added some (it had been changed at 600 miles with Pro Honda GN4 10W30 and a K&N 204 filter). Coolant looked fine (and the operating temperature was normal after it warmed up, dead center between hot and cold). Final drive oil was fine. I couldn't think of anything more to check and was about ready to take it to the local Honda dealer.

But, after reading the quoted post, I thought why not try the Chevron DELO 400LE 15W40. It was API SM rated (exceeding the minimum API SG rating) and doesn't have an energy conserving label. So I ordered a gallon from Amazon and another K&N 204 filter (each ~$4 cheaper than the local O'Reilly's).

I like to think I'm not easily impressed and not given to over-reactions, but this stuff seriously made a difference. The teapot whistle was gone and the engine is noticeably quieter at all revs. At cruising speeds (60 to 70 MPH) I can now barely hear the engine. The shift from 1st to 2nd had often seemed a little "clunky", but now it seems a lot better and sometimes slides right in without making any noise.

I'm impressed.
 
#28 ·
Having trouble shifting also, after reading the gentleman's suggestion on lowering the gear shift pedal, I did just that and now it is vastly improved. There is a linkage shaft with two ball joints to the right of the oil filter, looking at the back of the engine from the right side. Loosen the 10 mm nuts top and bottom(one is reverse threads) and turn to adjust, very precise so turn slowly. On the center stand, measured from the bottom of the pedal tip(where the rubber is) to the ground, it was 12 7/8", lowered it to 12 3/8", came out to 8 " on the side stand. The change was like night and day.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I just checked this out. Factory height is indeed 12 7/8" as MadMonty indicates per his check point. - Right to the dot while on the center stand on the level garage floor.

:smileygarden_de_ban

I see both the 10mm nuts, one is on the very top of the rod and one is on the bottom. After each are small ball joints. I do not see this adjustment as impossible although you need small hands to get up in there I would suspect. I also do not know how much TOTAL thread is on each end.

I am going to attempt this adjustment this weekend and will report back. Oddly the last trip out I didn't have this happen once and it was the 1st time EVER I took this bike out w/o missing the 1-2 shift.

Finally, at least maybe we have an option to try. If it doesn't work, its easy enough to put back in place.

While I agree with lowering the rod I need to make sure it doesn't become a problem with access, using my size 13 boots.

:confused:
 
#30 ·
@hanadarko,
Your comment about the Delvac 1300 above. I've use it in my VTX1300R and had good results. I used it for 2 oil changes.

Now I'm very interested in your results after you adjust the shifter. I didn't know it was adjustable. I'm wondering about adjusting it relative to the new mini boards.
I'm only size 11. Guess if they hadn't turned so much of you under for foot, you'd be really really tall!!!
 
#31 ·
I changed over to M1....20w-50 or whatever grade it is called now.
I didn't notice any improvement until once I got well past 1000 miles.
Then the 1-2 shift seemed to get better and I started missing it much less, yet each trip out...Id always miss it a few to several times.

I had suspected there could be some adjustment in the shifter, since I have the factory service manual but never bothered to REALLY get into it. I kinda just had gave up.

Now I have renewed hope.

:ty:
 
#32 · (Edited)
Hi all, i have talked about oil on another area recently but more in respect to fuel consumption issues. I think though that those of you who are suggesting gear lever adjustments are on to something.

My experience is as follows- before my 1300 i, like some here, tried the ctx700 and had gear changing issues the same as, or similar to those mentioned here, all problems were sorted by a couple of different adjustments at different times to a point that the problems disappeared.

As for oil, i don't know what was in the 1300 from the factory but at the 1st change at 1000km i used Honda gn4 and the gear shifts were a little more notchy or clicky. At 6000km i went to Motel 5100 semi-synthetic and it has made a big change for the better, a lot smoother, not perfect but next time i will try a full synthetic and see how that goes.

I have had absolutely no problems with gear shifting or missing gears either up or down the box, again i think adjustment may be the key here.

Jim
 
#34 ·
Interesting. I was taking an early morning ride this weekend and was thinking the same things about my transmission. My CTX shifts hard between gears, especially between 1-2. I have had performance offroad bikes that took extra effort between gears so this isn't new to me. I'll see how it goes as I break it in. I'm not overly concerned as long as the transmission keeps going! :)
Cheers,
Austin
 
#35 ·
Did some more research on gear pedal adjustment and found an article which suggested you start with the bottom of the gear pedal level with the top of the foot peg. Tried this and it came out to 12" even with it on the center stand and found it shifted even better but was to tight on the boot, backed it off to 12 1/4" and that is where it will stay for me, vast improvement. I am 6', 195 lbs with a size ten boot. Be careful when tightening the nuts back up that the ball joints stay parallel so there remains play in the shaft, if you push them opposite to each other the play goes away, also found one off the rubber jackets was not covering a ball joint as it was intended so I pushed that to where it belonged. Found it was easiest to do this flat on your back with head towards the rear wheel on the floor. Hope this helps.
 
#37 ·
My issue is not as much that it doesn't make it upshifting from 1st into 2nd gear and stays in Neutral (though I have had it happen) ....my issue is serious rubbing / grinding upshifting from 1st to 2nd. it ONLY happens when UPSHIFTING from 1st to 2nd gear. I bought the bike new (6-30-2015) and changed the break-in oil at 750 miles. I have to guess the oil was GN4? I used Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 when I changed it from 750 miles to my current mileage of 5,200 and the problem does seem to have got worse. As Mobil Delvac 1 oil being a very high grade Synthetic Diesel Oil ....maybe what most on here are saying is correct. I am going to try the new Chevron DELO 400SD 15-30 and see if that makes the issue go away (it is a heavy duty DINO oil)
 
#38 ·
Once I started M1 15w-50 (hard to find) and reached 1500+ miles the problem got less but its still there and annoying.
Happens now once a ride vs constantly.

I gave up and live with it. Someone mentioned a rather easy shifter adjustment but I haven't bothered.
My suzuki did the same dam thing, so I can't help but wonder if its something 'we' are doing or aren't doing.
 
#40 · (Edited)
My suzuki did the same dam thing, so I can't help but wonder if its something 'we' are doing or aren't doing.
I have no problem with my CTX1300 gears (1-2 or anything else), a few times it took me a few more seconds to find the neutral which is normal.

Ideally in order to verify whether the problem is the bike or something we do/not do is to find another CTX1300 (with an experience owner) in your area and switch bikes.

Certainly the way we operate the lever, accelerate, use the clutch and even the boot we wear influence the outcome of a smooth change of gear or not.
I use to have bikes that required a lot more "work" to achieve that, the CTX1300 is excellent by comparison.

My only suggestion is to not be gentle with the lever and the movement have to be sharp, wearing proper motorcycle boot should help.
 
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